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 Libya

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Twin Dagger
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PostSubject: Libya   Sun Mar 20, 2011 1:53 am

Since I dont think any country, including america, gives their people the exact or real thing, I was hoping that whenever someone came across an article about the situation in lybia right now with the bombing and attacking of them by the US, UK, and France.

Also any opinions on the "war" that we have just started would be welcome.

I don't believe that any of us should be in Libya doing what we are doing because it is an act of war actually. It is considered under mining a national gov't. France has also attacked ground troops, which we were only supposed to stop the ability of Gadafi flying planes not attacking ground troops.

If we step in because he is using military force to stay in power then what about all the other countries in Africa that does the same thing? what about the other countries all over the world, including, N. Korea, Vietnam, especially CHINA! does that mean that we have to attack them and force their leaders out of power as well because they do the exact same things daily and have for a long time.

This whole thing is just another way for the UN and America to see just how far we can stretch our influence and power and play bully once again. I am sorry all you nations that we have beat up on in the past, im sorry for my country.

These are my opinions, what are yours?

Also if you find news articles feel free to post them.

Here is one: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_us_libya
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PostSubject: Re: Libya   Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:50 am

Quote :
These are my opinions, what are yours?

You already stated it.


Basically, as you said, this is just the US and UN wanting to spread their imperialistic arms yet again. We fired enough missiles in the past 24 hours to cost us a good billion, I think it was. I can't remember, but it's way up there. Each missile costs around half a million, actually a bit more. Almost 600k, really.


And why are we spending that money, when we're supposed to be, like, "broke" here? Mmmhmm. Exactly.

Screw you, idiots. Learn how to run the world.

You're current grade:

F.

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PostSubject: Re: Libya   Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:10 pm

Rain Stinks wrote:
We fired enough missiles in the past 24 hours to cost us a good billion, I think it was. I can't remember, but it's way up there. Each missile costs around half a million, actually a bit more. Almost 600k, really.

A little off topic, but, although a billion is a lot of money, it's not as much as you'd think. Ireland's population is somewhere between 4 and 5 million people. That's about 1.5% of USA's population of over 300 million. Ireland now owes the European Union 250 BILLION euros. A euro is worth more than a dollar. Do the math. A big country like the USA can probably easily pay a few billion to resolve such an important issue. Whether what they're doing is the right way to resolve the situation is very questionable.

On one hand, a war has been started. That's always bad. On the other hand, a joint military operation could overthrow Gadaffi with less casualties than the local civilians, who have already been killed by the score, even when they're not being violent.

Demolisher wrote:
This whole thing is just another way for the UN and America to see just
how far we can stretch our influence and power and play bully once
again.
Over here we're wondering what took the U.N. so long. Aren't they supposed to intervene in this sort of situation?
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PostSubject: Re: Libya   Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:31 pm

They're supposed to, but that doesn't mean they will.

But I see what you mean about the money. But it's still a lot of money that could be being spent somewhere else other than military efforts.

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PostSubject: Re: Libya   Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:02 am

Quote :


I don't believe that any of us should be in Libya doing what we are doing because it is an act of war actually. It is considered under mining a national gov't. France has also attacked ground troops, which we were only supposed to stop the ability of Gadafi flying planes not attacking ground troops.

Actualy it is not considered an act of war. This is because Libya is a member of the united nations. The united nations resolution states that "All nessecary means(except grpund troops) must be used to prevent Gaddafi from kiling civilians". At the time of the inervension Gaddafi's forces were on the brink of taking the rebel stronghold of Beghazi. Where it was stated by Gaddafi himself that "Every house would be searched" and that everone who resited would be killed . He was also assaulting the city of Misratah using heavy artiliry fireing at random into the city. Because of this the UN force had the right to fire on military veicles.

Quote :
If we step in because he is using military force to stay in power then what about all the other countries in Africa that does the same thing? what about the other countries all over the world, including, N. Korea, Vietnam, especially CHINA! does that mean that we have to attack them and force their leaders out of power as well because they do the exact same things daily and have for a long time.

The reason for the interension in Lybia is because Gaddafi used extreme voilence to silence the rebellion and because he voilated a UN resolution by breaking his so called "Cease fire". Also, the goal is not to throw out Gaddafi and his goverment. But to stop the killings of civilians.

For the other countries you mentioned not being attacked there are many reason. The most importante is that these goverments do not(at this time) silence uprisings using deadly force. Indeed, he population of China largly supports their goverment because of the huge economic success.

You must also take into account that most of the countries you mentioned are far more powerfull the Lybia. Some even have nuclear weapons. An attack on any of these would be foolish indeed. And would most likely kill more civilians then it saves.

As for the other African countries you could say we should do something. But how? Most African countries only exist on paper, and their respective goverments only control the area around their own capital.

Quote :
This whole thing is just another way for the UN and America to see just how far we can stretch our influence and power and play bully once again. I am sorry all you nations that we have beat up on in the past, im sorry for my country.

The UN is composed of 192 nations all around the globe, including Libya. The organisation itself has little to gain from an attack on Libya and neighter do the US or the european nations that pushed for the resolution to be passed. What done in the past is past. Many of the countries formerly attacked by the US and its allies are arguably better of now than they were then.

So I support the UN in this matter. It is right to stop a man who's been in power for 41 years from killing his own people because they for once want a scarp of freedom. As long as the people of Libya supports the UN resolution it is the right thing to do. At least those are my views on the matter.

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PostSubject: Re: Libya   Sat Mar 26, 2011 8:18 am

It is a declaration of war ass, because they are still technically a govt of a country, and if you attempt to undermine a govt, which is what aiding a rebel resistance is doing (no matter what the reason you assist them or their reason for rebeling).

Quote :
For the other countries you mentioned not being attacked there are many reason. The most importante is that these goverments do not(at this time) silence uprisings using deadly force. Indeed, he population of China largly supports their goverment because of the huge economic success.


Not all of them do support their govt, syria is having people killed by their govt and they are protesting, china had an incident called the tamanen square (sp?) killing. People went to the town swuare and were squished by tanks literaly. Powerful country or not they do do the same things but because they are communist they cover it up extremly well.

Quote :
So I support the UN in this matter. It is right to stop a man who's been in power for 41 years from killing his own people because they for once want a scarp of freedom. As long as the people of Libya supports the UN resolution it is the right thing to do. At least those are my views on the matter.


I agree with you saying it is right to stop a man for killing, but its not right to just stop one. If we stop this man now then we must stop ALL of them in the future. Which isnt possible.
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PostSubject: Re: Libya   Sat Mar 26, 2011 12:25 pm

Quote :
The UN is composed of 192 nations all around the
globe, including Libya. The organisation itself has little to gain from
an attack on Libya and neighter do the US or the european nations that
pushed for the resolution to be passed. What done in the past is past.
Many of the countries formerly attacked by the US and its allies are
arguably better of now than they were then.

So I support the UN
in this matter. It is right to stop a man who's been in power for 41
years from killing his own people because they for once want a scarp of
freedom. As long as the people of Libya supports the UN resolution it
is the right thing to do. At least those are my views on the matter.

Firstly, the UN was set up in a particular way. Big countries who are a part of the UN, such as (I think these are all UN, but I may be wrong) the US, China, and Russia and England and even France, control the UN. The are, I think the term is, the Central Chamber, essentially. They make the major decisions, and can override every other country.

I do support the UN for trying to stop the killings and all that, but I still find it ridiculous that the US is really just trying to play god with all of the other countries in the world. We've done it with Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, and so many other countries it's not even funny.

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PostSubject: Re: Libya   Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:27 pm

The UN is not such a simple organization as some do think. Yes, the US, Russia, The people's republic of China, France and The united kingdoms do have secure seats and veto in the security council. This was set up so that non of the existing alliances at the time of it's founding would have too much power, and it seems to have worked. The security council is also only one of the many UN institutions. The UN is not perfect. But it's the best we have, and the most including and peacekeeping organization in the history of man.

The fact that this resolution was even passed was historic. The fact that non of the fifteen nations in the security council opposed it shows that the international community widely approved of the operation. It shows that it was needed. Diplomacy had been tried, and failed. As it sometimes do. The last opinion was to take military action. Sometimes that is necessary.

As for the US role in it. They were not the ones who pushed for this. That was France and the UK mostly. Especially France, who actually took action first. The simple fact is that the US has the largest military force in the world and thus the best opportunity to undertake the internal stages of the attack.

The other countries you've attacked with or without help from allies is past. Except for Afganistan and I think that is a discussion we should take in a thread of it's own.

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PostSubject: Re: Libya   Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:50 am

That all makes pretty good sense. I was never informed that the US wasn't one of the starters, so to speak.

As for the Afghan and other stuff, we can take that HERE

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PostSubject: Re: Libya   Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:37 am

Rain Stinks wrote:
Big countries who are a part of the UN, such as (I think these are all UN, but I may be wrong) the US, China, and Russia and England and even France

"Even France"? Nobody ever takes the French seriously!!
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PostSubject: Re: Libya   Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:01 am

Well thats because France always does 1 of 2 things. They give up and surrender, or they run away with their tails between their legs. Very few times have they actually dont much in a war, we saved them twice, the only time I can think of where they really did a whole lot was when they helped us at york town in the revolutionary war.
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PostSubject: Re: Libya   Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:57 am

Yeah, that's about it for the French. Except when they threw themselves a revolution.

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PostSubject: Re: Libya   Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:29 pm

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! Dost thou cast a slander upon my ancestors? OOO:


The French Revolution, was not the fault of the government as much either... The thing that started it was that the Maid of the Queen, stole a diamond necklace from a jeweler who had tried to sell it to the King and the King had refused because the country was having major money issues. The maid then made it look like the royal family had bought it. So the french countrymen jumped to conclusions, and decided that if the royal family would rather "buy" jewels, than feed their people they should not rule. And thus 90% of my ancestors got their heads chopped off... And the maid and her lover moved to England and disappeared.... :S


Anyway that was completely off topic. I really personally think that everyone should just Back Out of Libya and leave them alone... >.>
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PostSubject: Re: Libya   Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:08 pm

Guys, if you want to discuss France make a thread.

Now, we can't just sit and watch while a madman kill his own people using his full military power can we. What do we have armies for if not to prevent conflict?

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PostSubject: Re: Libya   Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:13 pm

Well ass then youd better go into syria, just abotu every country in africa, and china, and north korea, and cuba. They ALL do that to their people its just not a big thing because thats not where the oil is.
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PostSubject: Re: Libya   Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:19 pm

I'm getting rather tired of the whole "The west is stealing thing." Because it's not true. The conflict in Libya is disrupting the oil marked and the general economy. I ought to know, Norway survives on oil and gas alone.

The other countries you mentioned are different cases.

Africa generally is a mess. We can't solve that mess of tribe wars using supreme military power. We must rather help them develop and economy on their own.

China is the worlds fastest growing economy. 400 million people have been lifted out of poverty in the last few decades causing the major populous to support the regime. China is also a rather stable country with an impressive and modern armed force and a nuclear arsenal. Besides, more people are condemned to death i the US than in China every year. Who are we in the west to say that they must follow our system of goverment? After all ours tend to ruin the economy every second decade or so.

North Korea is still officially at war with South Korea and UN sanctions have been imposed on the country. However, last time the US engaged North Korea in war 3 million people died and the borders remained unchanged. China is also an ally of North Korea and North Korea itself possesses Nuclear weapons and the forth largest army in the world.

Cuba, well, sure, they're poor generally. But that's mainly because of US sanctions. Cuba also does have a working welfare system and generally keeps a neutral position. The Cuban government does not attack its own people eighter.

So what I'm generally trying to say is that we Westerns should think before we speak and consider the situation before we act. Who are we to say our "Democracy" is any better then the alternate systems of government? Just because we happen to have the most power that doesn't mean we can just eradicate those countries we do not like.

But when such an obvious madman as Gaddafi comes along. Using artillery, tanks and air force on rebels armed with AK47s and stones it's time to act. When a city of 700.000 people is on the brink of being stormed by a man who has said that those that do not love him deserve to die, then we must act. We cannot sit silent while mass murder is committed.

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PostSubject: Re: Libya   Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:25 pm

I agree with you on who are we to say that democracy is the best form of govt. I never said we were stealing though but that is the reason why we are stepping in with lybia and not with the other countries, is because lybia has oil that the world needs, and we are hoping to have it come out cheaper in the end.

My point though is that other countries do the exact same thing he does in order to stay in power. China does kill more people than us, if you count the people that just disappear. All gadafi is trying to do, as much as I hate the way he is doing it, is trying to keep his people under control. His methods are not the best methods but he is in charge of a gov't and so we are helping rebels against a legitimate gov't. Which is against international law, because its an act of war against them.
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PostSubject: Re: Libya   Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:34 pm

Actually the UN is only protecting civilians in Lybia. They're not taking sides. But as Gaddafi is the one to violate international law he is targeted. Note that no ground forces are used and that the NATO led effort does not coordinate with the rebels.

As I said earlier, it was the UK and France who pushed for the resolution. The UK is itself a huge oil producer and does not need Libyan oil. France is not dependant on Libyan oil eighter. Besides, by the end of this conflict oil is not going to be cheaper. Libya must follow the general world oil price like anyone else.

And Libya produced 1,3 million barrels of oil pr day. The world surplus is at 5 million barrels a day. So Libya isn't really that big on oil. Until Gadddafi threatened to kill everyone not supporting him on Benghazi the UN refused to do anything. But when he did they turned. Because 700.000 civilian lives were at stake. Not because there were a few oil fields not running.

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PostSubject: Re: Libya   Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:38 pm

Not taking sides you say? please explain then the attacks against gadafis ground troops?

There isnt a general world oil price, only the ones in OPEC and anyone else can set whatever price they choose.

They claim that its not the oil that its them protecting lives, but all wars are fought because of one of two things. A difference in idealology, or for some resource. So which is it? there isnt a difference in ideology there, but there is a resource that everyone in the world wants.
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PostSubject: Re: Libya   Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:32 pm

Libya isn't an especially large oil producer, and most of the fields are rather old. Brazil would be a better target if you want oil, Saudia Arabia and Niger is also good choices for that.

besides, wars are fought for many more reasons than that. And are usually more complex.

The UN is attacking Gaddafi's heavier weapons to make him unable to shoot down UN fighters and make it impossible for him to use artillery on undefended civilians. Should the rebles begin killing civilians the UN will attack them too.

Everything doesn't have to be about oil. The rising oil price is only hurting the Western economy now, and should the oil export from Libya become stable again oil would generally not become much cheaper since Libys is such a petty producer compared to nations such as Russia or Saudi Arabia, and because they have to make money too.

No, there isn't a general world oil price. But raw oil cost around the same anyway, because of demand and production which determines day to day price. Even though for example Norway is not in the OPEC the North sea oil costs around the same as oil produced in the Arabian countries. If it cost any less we would not be able to earn from the export.

Just another point, nothing guarantees that the rebles or the Gaddafi forces or even NATO fighters destroy the oil pipelines and production sites as too prevent the opposing side from controlling them.

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PostSubject: Re: Libya   Fri May 13, 2011 8:56 am

Twin Dagger wrote:
His methods are not the best methods but he is in charge of a gov't and so we are helping rebels against a legitimate gov't. Which is against international law, because its an act of war against them.
I reckon the term "legitimate government" goes out the window when a government uses such blatantly illegitimate means to govern.

Also revolution is not in itself such a bad thing, the neccesity for it is. Gadaffi has created a situation which warrants a justifiable rebellion. America, France, even Ireland are the nations we know today due to successful rebellions and the overthrowing of tyrranical system.
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PostSubject: Re: Libya   Fri May 13, 2011 10:53 pm

Yes, I agree that there needed to be a rebellion there, what im saying is that whether he uses brutal methods or not, we have no buisness helping the rebels because it is still a gov't and therfore helping to overthrow it.
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PostSubject: Re: Libya   Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:38 am

Twin Dagger wrote:
Yes, I agree that there needed to be a rebellion there, what im saying is that whether he uses brutal methods or not, we have no buisness helping the rebels because it is still a gov't and therfore helping to overthrow it.

Actually several countries now consider the national transitional council the legitimat goverment of Libya.

Also, the NATO is not helping the rebels, they are trying to prevent Gaddafi from killing civilians. Not helping the rebels win their civil war. The fact that Gaddafi isn't dead yet is proof of that, and also the fact that NATO bombs Gaddafi's tanks and artillery, and not his troops on the front lines.

Also, we have all sorts of things to do down there. We can't just sit and watch while thousands of civilians are killed, can we?

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